2007-04 · NASA ASRS report 734410
FLT CREW REPORTS BEING ADMONISHED BY TEB TOWER FOR DESCENDING TO MDA ON THE VOR DME-A AFTER A LATE HANDOFF FROM N90.
DEPARTED ZZZ FOR TEB. FLEW TO HOXIE INTXN; AND JOINED THE LVZ3 ARR. ALL OPS NORMAL. SHORTLY BEFORE STW VOR; WAS TOLD BY NEW YORK APCH TO TURN L DIRECT WANES FOR THE VOR/DME-A TO TEB. I HAVE DONE THIS APCH NUMEROUS TIMES; AND AM FAMILIAR WITH IT. IT IS THE NORMAL ARR METHOD INTO TEB; CULMINATING IN FLYING OVER THE TOP OF THE ARPT AND BEGINNING A CIRCLING MANEUVER TO RWY 19 FOR LNDG. WE WERE SPECIFICALLY CLRED FOR: THE VOR/DME-A TO TEB; TO CROSS WANES INTXN AT 3000 FT MSL; AND CLIFO AT 2000 FT MSL; CIRCLE TO RWY 19. APCH SEEMED ROUTINE; UTILIZING BOTH LATERAL AND VERT GUIDANCE FROM OUR DUAL FMS SYS. DURING THIS TIME; THE FREQ WAS VERY CONGESTED (NORMAL FOR NY AREA); SO WE WERE CONCERNED WHEN APCH HAD NOT TURNED US OVER TO TEB TWR; AS WE WERE ALMOST ABOVE THE ARPT. WE DIDN'T HAVE TO ASK THE CTLR; HOWEVER; AS HE WAS FINALLY ABLE TO HAND US OFF TO TWR AT THAT EXACT MOMENT. IT WAS THE NEXT MOMENT THAT TOTALLY FREAKED US OUT: JUST AS THE PIC FLIPPED TO THE TEB TWR FREQ; YOU COULD HEAR THE TWR TRY TO CALL US. THE PIC RESPONDED THAT WE WERE JUST JOINING HIM. WE WERE IMMEDIATELY ADMONISHED THAT WE WERE TO BE AT 1500 FT MSL; NOT AT 1000 FT MSL; FOR THE CIRCLE. THE CHARTED PROC GIVES AN MDA OF 1000 FT MSL. NOWHERE ON THE CHART IS THERE ANY MENTION OF 1500 FT MSL FOR ANYTHING. AT NO TIME DO WE EVER RECALL NY APCH TELLING US TO DO THE CIRCLE AT 1500 FT. I HAVE TRIED VERY HARD TO RECALL THESE EVENTS; AND STILL CANNOT RECALL WHETHER THE CTLR EVER TOLD US TO MAINTAIN 1500 FT. IN ADDITION; DURING THE ADMONISHMENT FROM THE TEB TWR; THE CTLR ALSO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THE HDOF I FOUND CONFUSING. HE SAID SOMETHING OF THE EFFECT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE QUESTIONED THE APCH CTLR AS TO WHY WE HADN'T BEEN HANDED OFF YET; OR JUST FLIPPED OVER OURSELVES TO THE TWR FREQ. THERE ARE 2 PROBS WITH THAT: 1) THE APCH FREQ WAS SO CONGESTED THAT WE COULD NOT GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE; AND 2) CHANGING FREQS ON OUR OWN WAS FROWNED UPON IN THE AIM; OR SO I THOUGHT. I KNOW THAT THE APCH CTLR HANDED US OFF RIGHT AFTER HE HANDED OFF AN AIRPLANE BEHIND US ON THE SAME APCH. THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT REMINDED HIM THAT HE HADN'T HANDED US OFF YET. THE CTLR DID NOT ASK US TO MAKE A PHONE CALL; NOR DID WE QUESTION ANYTHING; AS THE FREQ WAS CONGESTED ENOUGH AS IS. THIS CRITICAL PHASE OF FLT DURING A VERY DEMANDING MANEUVER IS NOT THE TIME TO BE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF I'LL STILL HAVE A CAREER AFTER I LAND. THE PIC IS A FORMER AIR TFC CTLR; AND FEELS THAT NOTHING IS WRONG; AND THERE IS NO VIOLATION OR OTHER ISSUES TO WORRY ABOUT. I HOPE THIS IS A DEAD ISSUE; BUT FEEL COMPELLED TO SEND THIS RPT ANYHOW. HOWEVER; IF ATC DESIRES TO USE THIS APCH AS A MEANS OF FLOW CTL INTO TEB; I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THAT THIS BECOME A SEPARATE CHARTED PROC; USING 1500 FT MSL AS THE CIRCLING ALT. THAT WAY; YOU HAVE THE CURRENT PROC FOR WHEN DICTATED BY WX MINIMUMS; AND A NEW ONE; BASED ON THE VOR/DME-A; THAT COULD BE USED FOR DAILY ARRS WHEN WX PERMITS; AND WOULD NOT REQUIRE ATC REMINDERS TO CROSS THE ARPT AT 1500 FT MSL. THIS COULD BE CALLED THE PATTERSON VISUAL OR SOMETHING TO THAT EXTENT; WITH THE CHARTED PROC; MANDATORY XING ALTS AND ANY OTHER ATC REQUIREMENTS BUILT INTO IT. NY TRACON IS ONE OF THE BUSIEST PLACES I KNOW OF. THEY DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO OFTEN SPELL THIS OUT TO EACH ACFT ARRIVING IN SUCCESSION TO TEB.
Source: NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System (public domain). Reports are voluntary submissions and are not verified by NASA.
Loading the flight search…
Pick an aircraft model — Boeing 737, Airbus A320, A380, Boeing 787 Dreamliner and more — enter your origin airport, and FlightFinder shows every route that plane flies from there with live fares.
We support Boeing 737/747/757/767/777/787, the full Airbus A220/A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A350/A380 family, Embraer E170/E175/E190/E195, Bombardier CRJ and Dash 8, and the ATR 42/72 turboprops.
Search and schedules are free. Pro ($4.99/month, $39/year, or $99 one-time lifetime) unlocks the enriched flight card — on-time stats, CO₂ per passenger, amenities, live gate & weather — plus My Trips with push alerts.
Live schedules come from Amadeus, AeroDataBox and Travelpayouts. Observed routes (which aircraft actually flew a given city pair) are crowdsourced from adsb.lol ADS-B data under the Open Database License.